Joining John on this episode of the Veteran Led Podcast is Victoria Collier, an Air Force carpenter who went on to build her own law firm and consulting business. Driven by her passion for seniors and helping people have a better quality of life during their later years, Victoria’s keen ability to plan for the future and anticipate potential obstacles and opportunities allowed her to build successful businesses while fulfilling her life’s mission. Don’t miss Victoria’s inspiring story that serves as a guidepost for purpose-driven veterans endeavoring to turn their dreams into reality.
Victoria Collier: Make a decision, execute, and then pivot when necessary and not get emotional, not get set back. Because, you know, failure is just not part of my vocabulary. Even though I fail every single day, we just move forward. Um, and we don’t sit in, in, you know, the, the negative residue of our actions. Um, so I would say that, you know, as a leader, you’ve got to learn how to do that.
John Berry: Welcome to the Veteran Led podcast, where we talk with leaders who use their military experiences to develop great organizations and continue to serve their communities.
Victoria Collier: I had already been living on my own since I was 17, moved out of my parents’ house when I was still in high school, and so I had a lot of great experience, but a lot of jobs leading me nowhere and I knew I was destined for greater. I just didn’t know how to get there. And so I had actually tried to go in the Army first, but the job I wanted, which was security police, you had to be five foot four at the time, and I was five foot three and a half, so I just missed it. And so I went in the Air Force instead. Um, and interestingly enough, I did not become a military police or a security police. Um, I became a carpenter and, um, interesting. As you know, when you’re in basic training, they give you a dream list if you don’t already have a secured job when you go in which I did not. Which they tell you, don’t go in the military without a secured position. And the only one they were offering to me before enlisting was like, uh, food services. Well, I don’t like to be in the kitchen. I don’t like to cook. I don’t like any of that. And so I said, you know, I would rather take my chances than know that that’s what I’m going to be doing for four years.
Victoria Collier: So when I went in, I went in open without a job. And so in basic training I tried to do, uh, loadmaster, uh, and I am, uh, you know, for your listeners, I’m 5’3”. Back then, I had to actually gain weight to join the military. Um, so I barely weighed 100 lbs. And so you had to lift this weight above your head, which I could do. I lifted it all the way above, but there was a mark on the machine, and I wasn’t tall enough to get it above the mark. And so loadmaster was not in my future. And so I chose carpentry. Um, so civil engineering squadron and I loved it. I absolutely loved it. Um, but then two years into it, I was 21 years old, and I was looking into my future, which not a lot of 21 year olds do. But I was looking into my future, and I thought, you know what? I’m five foot three, 100 lb. female. When I’m 40, swinging a hammer is not going to be very attractive to too many people. So I cross trained and became a paralegal, and I did that for three years before I got out of the service. And that has obviously, uh, helped me immensely, given that I am now a lawyer and have owned my own law firm, and now I help lawyers.
John Berry: And it didn’t just go that way. I mean, you became a paralegal in the military. Uh, you became an officer in the reserves. Uh, you’re, I assume a JAG lawyer. And then you start your own law firm, and then you sell it, and now you help other people sell their law firms. So tell us about that journey where all of a sudden, you’re going from, you know, you’re working in carpentry to you’re a paralegal, and then you’re really taking that huge leap in, okay, now I’m going to get out and go to law school. Now, did you have your undergraduate degree, uh, while did you get that while you were enlisted, or did you get it later?
Victoria Collier: So I started my education while I was enlisted. That’s one of the reasons why I became enlisted, uh, was so that I could go to college, um, and pay for it. Um, since I didn’t have a way otherwise. And so I started, but I certainly did not complete it while I was in. I had done six years, uh, in total active duty. And so when I was in, uh, I, you know, did some basic classes. And so then when I got out of the military, I finished up my undergrad, which was in psychology. Um, I was planning to be actually a CPA, but, um, I was making some personal choices in my life, like relationships. I was in the interfered with my studies, and so I shocked. Right, right, right. And so I got a little behind in accounting isn’t something you can get behind on so, uh, so I was very interested in psychology. So that’s what I ended up getting my undergrad degree in. Um, and it was during that time that I went in the. Well, it was after I graduated from undergrad, and when I was in law school, during my third year of law school, that I decided I would go in the Army Reserves because I wasn’t so sure the lawyer thing was going to work out, and I wanted to have a retirement, uh, fund. Right. I wanted a pension. Uh, so I thought I’d go in the reserves and do my 20 years and at least have a fallback. Uh, so. Which is all funny because I did start my own law firm out of college. Just right out of college because I had been a paralegal.
Victoria Collier: I had been a paralegal in the military, and then I had been a paralegal in the private sector. And I’m from Texas and I’m an Aries. So I naturally have, you know, just unbridled confidence. Um, and so started my own firm. And then ultimately, what happened was that the whole Iraq war stuff started. And I was in during the first time enlisted in the Air Force. The Desert Storm when that started. And so then when I was in the reserves, the Iraq stuff started. And, um, I wanted to have children. And my spouse at the time said, you know, haven’t you been through this already? Do you have to keep doing this? Uh, so the reserve started actually interfering with my law firm and my personal goals of having children. And, um, and at that time, you know, I was in during the reserves, The Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell had come out. Um, and I was in a same sex relationship, so it just wasn’t, you know, optimal, uh, to stay in that if I wanted to have kids and, and own my own business, I was serving alongside other lawyers who were sole practitioners, and they had to shut up their entire practice to be deployed for a year or longer. And I had just started my practice and I was like, I don’t I don’t think I want to shut it up, you know, I mean, I’ve, I’ve worked so hard. Um, and it was working well for me. And so, um, so I did three years and then got out of the reserves because of that.
John Berry: So I had a similar but opposite experience where I was, you know, I went from active duty to the National Guard and I got tuition assistance for law school, and it was, and I had a company command. And then my first couple of years of practice. And you know, how difficult the first couple of years of practice are. I had a, you know, a daughter that was just born and I was struggling, and I went to my commander, battalion commander at the time, and I said, sir, I, I can’t keep doing this like I’m, you know, I’m running 70 hours a week. I just, I don’t I feel like I’m failing my soldiers. I feel like I’m failing my family. Um, I’m putting everything I have into the business. And he said, well, well, John, you don’t have to worry about that. I got some good news for you. Uh, your company is deploying to Iraq in six months. You’re going to be on orders by next month. You won’t even have to worry about the law firm anymore. So I had to figure out a plan to keep the firm running while I was gone. Um, and, uh, and, you know, I ended up spending 20 years, and it was a great, great experience.
John Berry: But I was at that same crossroads where you were it was like, it is so hard to run a company and have a family and serve in the reserve component when you know that the deployment is coming and, and even though at the time we, I didn’t know we were going to be deployed, everything had ramped up since 9/11. Everything had ramped up. We went from drinking beers at the firing range to now, like, this is serious. Like this is I was back to like when I went to Guard weekend. It was very similar to active duty training. When I first joined the guard. It was it was almost like a vacation. You know, you show up on the weekend, you got some buddies there from the military, you do some training. But everybody seemed to it was there’s a lot of camaraderie and not necessarily a whole lot of training. And then 9/11 hits and then all of a sudden, it’s serious and you know, and we really stepped up. And I got to tell you that the post 9/11, uh, Reserves and National Guard, in many ways, uh, you know, served just as well as the active duty.
John Berry: And in some cases, I was blown away. I had e-4s right. Who were who had doctorates, degrees and people who had had college degrees that were, that were going on to do greater things, but said, I need money to pay, and I want to serve my country. And it was like, this is the best of both worlds. I so now all of a sudden, hey, when I was an infantry officer, I had these 18 year olds that came to me and they said, well, my choice was Job Corps, Burger King or Army. And so I went Army. But now I’m getting these, these young individuals who are a PhD, uh, grad school. Right. And I’m just thinking, uh, wow. Like the junior enlisted are so much smarter now. And it was it was a really good experience. But yeah, I was at that. I was at that same crossroads. Okay. So let’s go back to your story. So you get out, uh, you’ve decided, hey, this you know, I’ve served, and I want to pursue other things. But it’s not like it got easy at that point. Now you’re running a law firm and that’s tough.
Victoria Collier: Right. So I got out and I finished undergrad, I went to law school, and during all that I’m working full time, like two, three jobs. I don’t know that I’ve ever not worked 2 or 3 jobs other than when I was actually in the military. Um, and even in the military, I had a second job working home health care at nighttime, where I would stay at someone’s home and take care of them at night. And then I would also be in school, and then I would also then do my job all day long. But, um, so when I graduated law school, I started my own practice right out of law school, uh, doing estate planning, elder care. Um, and so what that means is that for the estate planning side, it’s, you know, your typical wills and trusts, um, and for the elder care side, which is really what pulled my heartstrings, was, uh, helping senior citizens plan for long term care. And so sometimes that means qualifying for Medicaid if they’re in a nursing home. But what my niche became, which hardly anybody was doing out there and almost nobody even knew about it, and that was veterans benefits for wartime veterans who did not necessarily retire from the military, but they could have who did not necessarily have service connected disabilities based on being injured while in the military. But they could have. But really, this pension was for those who served during a wartime period now or later in life. And they need long term care, whether that’s home care or assisted care or nursing home care. And so there’s tax free income to help pay for that care. And so that became my niche within the law firm. And so I started going around the country teaching other lawyers how to add that to their estate planning and elder care practices. So that we could help more veterans. And quite honestly, John, I feel like I was able to serve my country more by doing that than actually being a carpenter or a paralegal in the military, even though I did have some pretty incredible, um, you know, military experiences.
John Berry: And this is a very important distinction here that veterans need to know. That is, there’s a difference between veterans disability benefits that you can get that’s based on a percentage of your disability for an injury that occurred in service and the wartime pension. Could you please, uh, elaborate for veterans since you were I worked on the on the opposite side of that, that the disability benefits. But you worked in the pension side and it’s different. Um, and so sometimes veterans that may not be able to get the, uh, disability rating that they want are eligible for the pension. So talk us through that, please.
Victoria Collier: Right. Exactly. And you do have to choose one or the other if you can qualify for both. But assuming you don’t qualify for both or that the pension is the one that’s more beneficial for you, essentially what that is for people who have served in the military at least 90 days on active duty, or after 1982. I think it is. You have to serve at least two years, and then you have to have at least a, you know, something greater than dishonorable discharge, and now you have a disability or you’re 65 and above they the VA considers you disabled if you’re 65 and above, um, and then you have low income and low resources, and low resources really is around the $130,000 mark not to include your home. So it’s not like you have to be destitute, like, you know, $2,000. You can have just over 100,000 and still qualify for this. And so if you meet the military standard, if you meet the disability standard, and then the income and asset standard, then you can receive. You know, tax free income from the VA to reimburse you for healthcare costs with the most expensive of those health care costs being home health care or assisted living or nursing home care.
Victoria Collier: And so it can really be a great benefit that where we found it most beneficial was keeping people out of a nursing home by being able to provide home health care or by being able to afford assisted living. And so most people sacrifice their care. There’s like, I’m going to, you know, not get care because I can’t afford it. The interesting thing that many people don’t know about is, for example, home care, is that it can even be their children providing the care in order to qualify for this benefit. Um, and you don’t have to be retired from the military. That’s what you hear all the time because it’s called a pension. They’re like, yeah, but I didn’t retire from the military. You don’t have to. You just have to have served that minimum 90 days on active duty. Um, we hear from widows all the time. My spouse never got anything when they were military or when they were, you know, because of their service, I’m not going to get anything. This benefit is also there for the widows or widowers of veterans as well. So it’s a great benefit.
John Berry: Yeah. And that’s some great knowledge that as veterans, we tend to I hate to say it, but we tend to ignore because we don’t want to believe that we’re ever going to get to that point. But it’s you bring up a great point that, you know, when veterans suffer, a lot of times it’s their family members who are stepping up and taking care of them. And there are resources that can help pay for that and that the family doesn’t have to suffer. And as you know, Victoria, when we deploy our family members, they feel it, uh, they may not go with us, but sometimes, in many ways, I think when they’re at home, it’s worse because when we’re in that I was deployed. Hey, Halliburton took care of our food, our laundry, and you’re just worried about the mission. But it’s you don’t have to worry about all the stuff at home, and the family has to take care of it. Now, similarly, when a veteran gets older or the disabilities get so bad, it’s the family members again who step up and who pay that price along with the veteran.
Victoria Collier: Yes, they’re definitely making sacrifices right along with the veterans for the service that they’re doing. And one of the things that I do hear from veterans, a lot, those that understand the benefit is there is you’ll hear a lot that, well, I’d rather it go to other guys that deserve it more than I do. And as if there’s, you know, a pie and that they’re going to take part of it, that somebody else is not going to be able to take. And what I try to share with everyone is that the fact that you serve, the fact that you serve during wartime period means you earned it, and that you’re not taking away from anybody else, because the government will find a way to pay everyone who’s eligible.
John Berry: Well, and in fact, if you don’t do it, you may be hurting other veterans. I you know, I learned this. I went from being an infantry platoon leader to being the support platoon leader. It’s a long story about how I thought I was going to be the Scalp platoon leader, but no, I had to be. So I had to learn logistics. But, you know, the Battalion S-3 told me, you know, John, we’ve got, you know, we’d like over 100. I think it was over 100,000 rounds of .556, you know, just regular what you’d what you’d fire out of your M4 not belt. But this is the regular, uh, ammunition. And, uh, he’s like, well, if you don’t if we don’t use it all, we will get less next year. And I’m like, well, what do you mean? He’s like, well, this is how we forecast. This is how budgets work. And he said, you know, this is how like the government’s budget works. Like if you don’t use it, you lose it. So we need to find a way to get more training out there so we can fire all this ammo so that we can have ammo for next year.
John Berry: And at the time I’m like, well, that seems wasteful. That doesn’t seem right. And he’s like, he’s like, no, but that’s how it works, John. Like, you know, this is like, if we’re not using it, they’re going to say we don’t need it and they’re going to allocate it to somebody else. Uh, same thing goes with your tax dollars that are going out there to the government. If veterans aren’t using them, uh, they’re not going to give them back to the taxpayer. They’re going to use that money. And, you know, I can’t think of anybody who deserves, uh, deserves it more than the people who actually volunteered and raised their hand now. And, of course, our Vietnam veterans, uh, you know, who were part of a draft, who didn’t have a choice. But, you know, it’s an opportunity that’s available. And you are never taking from somebody if you get your benefits. And in many ways, it helps because if everybody says, no, I don’t need it, no, I don’t need it. And then your family’s suffering. Well, then what’s the point of us having these benefits?
Victoria Collier: Right, right. And that is the case often is the family is the one who does suffer, you know, globally. Because if you’re not getting it now and all the money is paid privately on your care, then your spouse doesn’t have any money to pay for their own care in the future. And there’s two people to think about, right? And we don’t know how long we’re going to be living or the level of care we’re going to need, or the expense that’s going to be in the future. So take what you can get now if you’re eligible for it.
John Berry: Yeah. And once again, I mean, you before you sold your business, you’re an elder care lawyer and you understood all the ramifications and family members coming to you saying, how do we pay for this? How do we take care of our aging parents? And these are, I imagine, not easy conversations to have.
Victoria Collier: They’re not easy. Um, but like in the military, you know, you’ve got to have conversations. That’s part of leadership is having those crucial conversations with people that are uncomfortable. You know, I mean, to me, talking about estate planning and death is all about, you know, starting those conversations and being willing to have them with people when they’re not ready, uh, when they’re uncomfortable. But yes, I did sell my law firm that does that, did that type of work. But I also currently co-own a business called Patriot Angels. And that’s all we do is we serve war time veterans to help them get this benefit. And so we’re still having that conversation all day every day.
John Berry: Wow. And so I want to get to because you sold your law firm relatively young. And I mean that in the way that a lot of lawyers hang around forever until they become, you know, mentally incompetent. Some of them like, to quote, die with their boots on. They don’t want to move out of the practice. But, I mean, you sold your practice, uh, earlier than most. How did you how did you make that decision?
Victoria Collier: So I had been practicing for 18 years, and I was 48 when I actually made the decision. And how I made the decision, which probably won’t go over so well on this kind of show where I’m talking to veterans, but, I was it was on Veterans Day, and I was at an assisted living. I had been asked to come do a presentation to veterans and their spouses and honorarium kind of thing as well on Veterans Day. And so I’m waiting to go on the stage. I’m standing towards the front and there’s a woman on the front row, and she was cantankerous at best, and she started heckling me. And I’m not even on the stage yet. And so in my mind, my first thought was not pleasant. Let’s just say, you know, it was just kind of like, shut up, lady. And, uh, and so then I started thinking, you know, these are my people. Not only are they senior citizens who I absolutely love from my days of working in a nursing home as a caregiver and doing home health care, these are my people, but they’re also veterans. And if this is how I feel, then I need to get out because I will not be serving them well if this is how I feel on the inside when someone’s just giving me a hard time. And so I have always, ever since I. You mentioned Burger King earlier, that was my very first job I ever had. Um, and so ever since I worked at Burger King, I’ve had this philosophy that if you’re not happy, no one else can change that for you. You’ve got to change yourself or your environment. And so fast forward to that day on Veterans Day, uh, in 2018. And I was like, I need to change my environment, otherwise I’m going to harm people instead of help people. And so at that moment, I started looking for and planning for my transition plan, which took two years because I sold my firm in 2020. And so I knew that if I had just shut down my business, that would also be a disservice to everyone I had ever helped and everyone else that could be helped. And so I decided I would sell my law firm, and the legacy that I had created would continue. Uh, but that’s the reason was that I was heckled by an old lady on Veterans Day.
John Berry: Well, and sometimes it’s not as important as to what got us there, but that that we got there. And I think the important message here and the leadership by example that you said is you built something to help veterans and you wanted to make sure that it continued, continued on whether you were going to be a part of it or not. And so the beauty of it is not only does your mission live on, but you got paid. You sold it. And so I think for a lot of veterans that that want purpose in their post-service career, and they want to build something. Understand that, you know, once you build it, it doesn’t have to go away. When you step down, you can sell it. You make money, but more importantly, your mission goes on. And as lawyers, we have such a strong ethical obligation to our clients. We can’t leave our clients hanging ever. And we can’t leave them hanging because we want to walk away. We can’t just walk away. And so this was the transition that allowed you to continue to make sure that your mission went on, and that you complied with your ethical obligations to your clients. And so now you’re 50 or early 50 or early 50s you’re out. Did you at some point, did you get bored? I mean, how did how did you tell me about this transition? I mean, you’re done, you’re out, you buy the farm and you’re you have a new business. And eventually you get back into helping people sell businesses. The specific niche of helping lawyers sell their businesses. But take us on that journey. You’re now retired at 50. I mean, wow, right?
Victoria Collier: Right. So retirement for me has a different definition than retirement for the rest of the world, I think, um, and that is retired to me, doesn’t mean you just stop, um, and enjoy, you know, the flowers. To me, it just means you’re reshifting your energy and your focus on something else that you have a passion for. And so I did buy an 89 acre farm. And in Georgia at that time, in 2019, it became legal for the first time to be able to grow hemp for our CBD products. And I still had a passion for seniors and I still my life mission, my purpose in life is to help people have a better, uh, quality of life at the end of life. And that’s never changed. That was my purpose when I worked at the nursing home. That was my purpose when I was an elder care attorney. That was my purpose when I had the farm. And that’s still my purpose in my business now called Quid Pro Quo, where I help lawyers find life after law. It still having the best quality of life in your second half. And so I grew hemp for two years, and I created CBD products primarily for seniors. Um, and my children have animals like horses and things like that. So it was a way for us to do something together and spend a lot more time together. They were becoming, uh, preteens. And that’s a critical age, I feel, before they become full-fledged teens.
Victoria Collier: And they never want to see you again to really create those memories that they’re going to remember forever. And so we spent a lot of time on the farm together, especially since coincidentally, that’s when Covid hit, and nobody could go anywhere. And so we had 89 acres of outdoors that we could explore together, be together, grow things together, uh, raise animals together. And so it was a beautiful time. And so after doing that for a few couple years, it also was very far, it was 2.5 hours from our regular house. Um, and so I was there a lot. Not at the other house a lot. And so I thought, you know what, let’s downsize this. And also, John, just be candid. Uh, it was very expensive. I mean, it almost bankrupted me being a small farmer, especially in a new industry where you’ve got big bucks, the CBD industry, where there’s big industry, you know, corporations going in and spending all kinds of money. You can’t really make a dent. You can’t really, uh, you know, go out there and sell like, like you can legal services. And so, you know, I could see the writing on the wall, I could feel it in my pocketbook. And so lawyers started coming to me and asking me, how did you sell your law firm? Um, and in fact, the very first client I had, came to me to see if I was willing to buy her law firm because she did not yet know that I had sold mine.
Victoria Collier: And I said to her, I said, well, that would be lovely, except that I’m under a non-compete, and so I can’t buy your law firm. And she’s like, oh, how did you sell it? Um, and she became my first client, even though she had a broker already. Um, she switched to me, and I was able to sell her law firm within five months, all cash up front. And she is out now in California, enjoying her grandkid, um, and just loving life. You know, she’s having her life after law. So then I had multiple lawyers approached me, and the reason they knew me was that when I had my law firm, I also, as I said before, I was going across the country teaching lawyers how to implement VA benefits in their practice to help more people, also to increase their assets within their law firm and their income within the law firm and the value of their law firm. So I was helping them from a business standpoint by helping more people. And so I had been doing that for ten years or more. And so the. People, the lawyers that I was helping. Most of them were older than me because, as you said, I’m fairly young. And so now I’ve got all these people who I had taught how to implement VA benefits into their estate planning practices. Coming back to me saying, can you help me sell my law firm? Well, the dollars and cents you have to at some point make a decision.
Victoria Collier: You know, when you know, when you’re praying or meditating or whatever, and you’re like, show me the easy way. Why is everything so hard all the time? And here I am trying to hawk, you know, $50 bottles of CBD and I’m up against these big pharma. And then I’ve got lawyers saying, I’ll pay you $1,000 an hour if you help me. You got to wake up and say, okay, well, this seems to be the easy route, you know, and I’m still helping people that fit within my life purpose, which is helping people have a better second half of life. So that’s how I full time transitioned into Quid Pro Quo, which is, uh, helping lawyers buy and sell law firms. I still have a farm, but now it’s only three and a half acres. I don’t grow anything, uh, other than animals. So we have goats and chickens and ducks, and it’s still a beautiful experience with my children, uh, because they, you know, get to experience. We live in the city, and yet they still have to. They still have all these farm amenities and responsibilities and just, uh, experiences that a regular city kid’s not going to get. I grew up in the city of Houston. I always thought I was country, but I was not country. I was like the urban cowgirl, you know? Um, and so now they get to actually experience both sides.
John Berry: And I want to go back to the leadership lessons here, because if you really peel this back, there’s some really important lessons that can apply to anybody in any industry here.
Victoria Collier: Yeah, absolutely. And so number one, I would say the biggest key factor if you actually want to make not just a little bit of money but a lot of money, and that is create a business that can operate without you 100% autonomous without you. Um, and that’s through other people. So that’s leveraging other people, that’s leveraging policies and procedures and systems. And that is also certainly leveraging the, um, clients coming in that they’re not coming in to see you. Um, they’re coming in to get the service from the business. So much of that is branding. Much of that is having automated systems that bring the clients in, that’s having salespeople who can do the sales that are not that’s not the owner. And then obviously the production. Uh, so the reputation becomes that of the business, not that of the owner. And that’s hard for so many owners because we built it. It’s our baby and it’s our ego. Well, it’s your ego that’s going to be the number one that stands in as a barrier between you and selling your firm or you and getting lots of money when you sell your firm. So that’s number one. Make it autonomous. When you can do that, you are actually building the assets in the firm because your database list is an asset. Your policy and procedures are an asset. Your team is an asset.
Victoria Collier: Um, and so when you’re creating it to be autonomous, you are in effect then building those internal assets that have value that can then be sold, what buyers are buying. And this is what sellers need to know from the beginning so that you can build it to sell it, like John Waller says. And that is they are buying predictability. And of course, they’re buying an income stream. You know, they want profit. There’s no purpose in buying it if it’s not profitable. And that’s even after servicing alone. If they have to get a loan in order to buy your business, and they likely will get a loan because nobody wants to come to the table with their own money. That’s just silly. Um, and so we’ve got to be able to way to show that there’s profit, and that profit is predictable. And so the more you can be businesslike and be clean with your profit loss statements that you’re not flowing all kinds of personal stuff through there and it’s all convoluted, then the better your chances are of selling it, and the more professional you are, the more professional your business is as a business, and less of a hobby, or less of a, you know, like a trade, if you will. Um, then then the more you can sell it and the more likely it will sell.
John Berry: Great, great great points. Now I want to go to what I think is the most important part of the show, which is the After Action Review. I want to talk to you about the leadership lessons you either learned in the military or after the military, the top three that are good and the top three worst leadership you’ve seen. And we don’t need to name names or anything, but certainly, uh, you know, I think those are the experiences we want to share, because if we want to lead our communities or lead our businesses, we really need to share those best practices. As I say, you know, the things I screwed up that I passed on to others, those are cheap lessons. Somebody, you know, somebody else paid for the scars. Uh, and sometimes that person is me. So what were the best lessons and the worst lessons?
Victoria Collier: So I would say, you know, just based on some of what we’ve talked about today, um, that I’m hopeful that people picked up on, that’s good leadership is that a leader has to be willing to jump in, uh, take action and be willing to be vulnerable when it doesn’t always work out the way they need it to work out and be able to pivot easily and quickly. Um, you know, through the different things I’ve done that has always been a thread as far as. You know, make a decision, execute, and then pivot when necessary and not get emotional, not get set back. Because, you know, failure is just not part of my vocabulary, even though I fail every single day. Um, we just move forward. Um, and we don’t sit in, in, you know, the, the negative residue of our actions. Um, so I would say that, you know, as a leader, you’ve got to learn how to do that. Um, beyond that, I would say that, um, one of the good leadership examples I had was when I was in the JAG Corps and my law office manager, she taught me at the time, you don’t have to know everything. You just need to know where to find it. You need to be able to locate the resource and then use the resource to your benefit. But you don’t have to know everything. Um, and so that has been extremely helpful not only in my own life, but when I’m training others and mentoring others, you know, in my own businesses as well as I coach other law firms. Um, is that, you know, we don’t have to all know everything. It’s exhausting, uh, to know everything.
Victoria Collier: We don’t have to be the expert in everything. Surround yourself with others that are experts and as well as other resources. Um, if not people, then resources. So I think that that was a huge leadership, um, lesson there. And then another great. Leadership was. When I was in the legal department. Um, you know, in business and in life, people want to meddle in other people’s business. And there was one paralegal that approached the staff, judge advocate, about two other paralegals that were both female, that were potentially dating each other. Um, and they were, you know, there was a fairly significant rank difference between them. And that was one year prior to the don’t ask, don’t tell. So it literally was illegal, um, to do that. And so, you know, the SGA could have gone in many different directions with that. Um, but what I observed was the SGA told the paralegal that he did not want to hear anything further from the one who was bringing the news, and that if she continued to speak about it to any other individuals within the um, JAG or otherwise, that he would take steps to remove her from the office because the other individuals were there doing the mission, and it didn’t affect, um, anybody’s work. Um, and she was just trying to meddle. And so I feel that that was good leadership in saying, look, we all have our place here, and you need to focus on the right thing, and the right thing is the mission. And so that’s what he did. So I would say those are three, uh, of the top I would bring out.
John Berry: Well, and I’m sure that that was not the last you ever saw of a meddling paralegal who spread gossip throughout an office. We know how toxic that can be when people start talking about other people’s relationships. And, you know, I think that that attention seeking behavior is very dangerous because it distracts people from the mission. Like we’re here to serve our clients. We’re here for an important mission. Um, and it just blows my mind when people get all spun up about something that is gossip. And that’s not why we’re here. And people who gossip, uh, generally are toxic. They’re a cancer of the organization because they’re pulling focus away from what’s important.
Victoria Collier: Well, and that is a huge distinction between military and private sector, and with our veterans owning businesses in the private sector or just working for others, you know, so many owners will keep toxic people because they like them or they want to be nice or they don’t want to be the bad guy. And that’s not leadership, um, at all. You know, I mean, we’ve got to identify and get rid of the poison. Um, and that is part of being the leadership and recognizing that, um, and that is, you know, much more prevalent, I think, in the private sector than in the military as far as our options on how to deal with it.
John Berry: Well, that’s true, because sometimes it takes an act of God to get rid of somebody in the military. I’ve been there. Right. But or it takes a lot of time. All right. Let’s go to the three examples of negative leadership.
Victoria Collier: All right. So one is, you know, as good as that law office manager was before, the same law office manager was very bad in um in leadership as far as how she pitted employees against each other or I should say service members against each other, uh, which created unnecessary competition, stress and backstabbing. So she literally would go tell one paralegal something and tell somebody else something different that they then would have consternation between them. Um, so I don’t, you know, first of all, it’s horrible leadership, but it’s also just bad at all ranks, um, whether you’re the leader or not. So that’s one. The other was and this is the one that touches me, uh, the strongest. And that was when Desert Storm started, the civil engineering squadron is responsible, or at least the, um, yeah, the entire squadron is responsible for getting to the base first so that we can build the hard back tents and get the plumbing up and the AC and all that kind of stuff, so that everybody else who’s getting deployed will have housing when they get there. And so my squadron was deployed to Turkey to set up the hardback tents. Um, and the commander refused to send the women over there as part of the team to fulfill our military mission, uh, you know, our wartime mission. And so how that affected everyone was, first of all, we had a small little contingent that stayed in Germany, which is where I was stationed. But everyone who got deployed, you know what happens? First of all, there’s bonding. Like there is nowhere else because you’re in this critical, uh, situation together.
Victoria Collier: Secondarily, they get awards like the, uh, Achievement Medal and the Accommodation Medal that you’re not going to get by not going. Um, and then when you don’t get those awards, it can affect your testing and your rank. And so all of that happens. And so, uh, because of his concern of having females in the same place as the males while setting up the base, uh, that really had a detrimental effect on many of the women. And. Many of the men, um, as well. And so I’d say that that was probably the worst example of leadership I’ve seen. Um, and then the last is, um, also during the deployments of Desert Storm, there was a parking lot for the military members who were deploying so that they could keep their cars there. Um, you know, so they didn’t have to keep them off base or anything like that, and they would be secured, and they were patrolled by the military police. Um, in the Air Force called security police. Well, you know, we respect our police officers as we should be able to, but there was a ring of them that were involved in the car club at the time called acrophobia, where, you know, you lower your cars because, you know, the cars were afraid of heights. You know, it’s a big car club thing. Well, these police officers who were in this club. Um, they were going around to the car lot, and they were stealing parts of people’s cars that would help enhance their cars. Um, so I would say that that was certainly a abuse of authority and not good leadership.
John Berry: Wow. Well, Victoria, thank you so much for coming on the show. How can people get a hold of you? And do you still give the public talks about, you know, specifically pensions and, and elder care issues? And of course, where can people reach you if they want to sell their law firm or sell another business or just reach out to you?
Victoria Collier: Sure. So the two ways to reach out is number one is I do have a website called quidproquolaw.com. And that’s specifically for lawyers who want to buy or sell law firms or want coaching on how to have better law firms. Um, so that they are sellable in the future. The other way for veterans who potentially could need that pension with, um, an attendance because they were in during a war time period is, I would say, to look at patriotangels.com. And that’s my other business where we do help veterans, uh, apply for the pension benefits. And so I don’t go around doing talks a lot on the VA benefit anymore, but I do actually still serve as an expert witness on those topics as recent as this past, um, November, where I was an expert in a trial, a jury trial.
John Berry: Oh, wow. So just briefly, uh, indulge me, uh, what was what was the trial about?
Victoria Collier: So the trial was about, uh, this veteran that was living in, um, kind of like HUD housing for veterans. And there was this home health care company that’s attached to a company that applies for veterans benefits. And so the home health care company wrangles in these veterans and says, we can provide home health care for you, and you can get this benefit. And so then the company that, um, was not home health care, but they represent themselves that way. They would actually, you know, basically say that the veterans paying all this money for home health care so that they could get the VA benefit, and then they would have the VA benefit paying that company directly and the home health care company was just kind of like, you know, the fence in the middle and they may or may not have been providing any of the care that was used in the application as verification of medical expenses. And so it’s just this huge thing and it’s going on all over the place. And it’s horrible because veterans don’t know that they actually have an option, uh, to actually get real health care. Um, and, um, and how much money that they’re paying over to someone else that they don’t need to be paying. And so that’s what the crux of the issue was.
John Berry: Yeah. And it seems that there’s all these cottage industries that blow up around the benefits. Right. And this is why lawyers are important in the system, right. To keep the system in line with the laws that actually exist, not with what somebody is claiming. And unfortunately, uh, you know, veterans fall prey to this in many ways. And it’s disgusting. And it happens.
Victoria Collier: It is disgusting. And it does happen. Um, and it even happens sometimes from people who claim to be veterans, whether or not they are so, you know, I mean, just with anything, John, everyone has to do their due diligence. And, um, and that’s part of leadership as well. It’s not playing the victim. It’s not being the victim. It’s taking control of yourself, your life, your decisions. And that’s what a leader does.
John Berry: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Victoria. Thank you for being on the show. And thank you for what you continue to do for veterans.
Victoria Collier: Thank you, John.
John Berry: Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we pursue our mission of promoting veteran leadership in business, strengthening the veteran community, and getting veterans all of the benefits that they earn. If you know a leader who should be on the Veteran Led podcast, report to our online community by searching @veteranled on your favorite social channels and posting in the comments, we want to hear how your military challenges prepared you to lead your industry or community, and we will let the world know. And of course, hit subscribe and join me next time on Veteran Led.
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