In this episode of Veteran Led, John S. Berry sits down with Steve Russell, the Army battalion commander who led Task Force 1-22 Infantry in the historic capture of Saddam Hussein. Russell shares the details of tracking Saddam through his network of trusted families and the ultimate successful raid in December 2003.​
Beyond his military service, Russell discusses his continued dedication to public service as an Oklahoma State Senator and U.S. Congressman, where he championed veteran causes including the Uniform Spouse Protection Act reform. His journey from battlefield commander to manufacturer and elected official demonstrates the lasting impact of military leadership principles in civilian life.​
Today, Russell serves with JAARS (Jungle Aviation and Relay Service), where he applies his military logistics and leadership experience to support humanitarian missions in remote jungle locations worldwide. Using aircraft, boats, and four-wheel drive vehicles, JAARS reduces barriers and serves communities across the Amazon, Congolese, and Melanesian rainforests.​
Explore Resources from the Episode:​
They grabbed him by the scruff of the neck when there was enough of him to grab. He had said, you know, I am Saddam Hussein, the duly elected president of Iraq. I’m willing to negotiate. And one of John’s guys says, well, President Bush sends his regards.
Welcome to Veteran Led. Today’s guest is Steve Russell. Now, Steve is probably best known for his book, We Got Him!: The Capture of Saddam Hussein. Steve served as a battalion commander, the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry, when Saddam was captured. And his story has been featured on the Discovery Channel. Now, Steve’s service did not end with his military career. In fact, he served as a state senator in Oklahoma for several years before becoming a member of the U.S. House of Representatives for two terms or four years. Steve formed Vets for Victory and has been a board member of Vets for Freedom. Aside from his political career and nonprofits, Steve has also started his own business called Two Rivers Arms Company. Well, Steve, as we start, you’ve done the thing that Veteran Led is all about, had a bigger, better future after service. And you had an amazing military career. You were the battalion commander of the battalion that captured Saddam Hussein.
Yeah, I mean, the title of my book’s We Got Him!, not I got him. I had the privilege to command Task Force 1-22 Infantry, and we were a part of the hunt from start to finish. We worked with, great folks, from C Squadron, 1st Brigade, 4th Infantry Division. A lot of other associated units from 4th Division, U.S. Army. There were a lot of folks involved. We just had the privilege to be, one of the key units involved in the hunt for Saddam from start to finish.
Outstanding. Now, I want to take you back to… You are the commander of the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry. And, you know, Saddam is out there. And as the battalion commander. What was that feeling like with your team, knowing that you were getting closer to Saddam and you, you had a pretty good idea that you were in the ballpark when the capture took place. Walk us through that. Just the morale in the organization as that’s happening.
So I had the privilege to lead Task Force 1-22 Infantry. We were assigned to occupy Tikrit, Iraq. That was Saddam’s hometown. So from the May time frame, when a lot of the fighting, had ended, we had fought on the left flank, moving north, even towards Mosul. We were supposed to go through Turkey, but that got changed. So we came in a little later than the rest of the ground forces but still went to our objectives in the north. We lost Osbaldo Orozco, who was a wonderful, All-American football player from Fresno State. He was a great young man. He was killed in action, had several wounded, and some of our last scraps with the Iraqi Republican Guard Corps that was near Tikrit. After that a lot of the fighting had died down, and we occupied Tikrit. But it became apparent pretty quick that we got some tips.
They had the blacklist, you know, people kind of going off a deck of cards, you know, that sort of thing. But there were two businessmen that came, and they mapped out on sheets of butcher paper what Saddam’s security apparatus looked like. And they talk about how it’s centered in half a dozen controlling families that had he had grown up with, you know, since his teen years or that they were part of the family or maybe they were associated with him over time. But they were trusted. And those were his henchmen. They were his bodyguards. They were his key deputies, all of that. And what we found, you know, as we listen to these guys these two businessmen, I remember looking at what they mapped out on a sheet of paper, and I thought, this is the most organized lie I’ve ever heard, or it’s got to have some truth to it.
And so we began to try to put it into tiers. And it wasn’t just us. We had from A Squadron at that time, we were working hand-in-hand with the special operations team, and a guy I’ll call Jack. They were looking for things. We were looking for things. They were wondering how we were getting our intel and developing human intelligence. And we worked very well together. So you had a number of organizations about five different military units that were pretty much in the hunt from start to finish. We became involved because of geography. We were in Saddam’s hometown. My soldiers occupied his birth village of Al-Awja. I had troops in his literal residence. Now, he had palaces all palaces all over the country, but we were actually in his residence. I look back our soldiers were confirming the zero of their rifles by shooting you know, gold-trim China out of Saddam’s house cupboards.
And, you know, it was stupid stuff. You look back on it like, man, one of those plates would be worth a fortune now. And we were swimming in his pool at the beginning. A lot of different stuff. But over time, with this five controlling families we thought, okay, they protected Saddam very well, but they didn’t protect themselves and people knew them. And so we developed a strategy that if we could track down the people around Saddam, that it might lead us on a chain reaction as we neck it down, that it would lead us to where Saddam actually was. And you had the big guys, you had the in between guys that were funding the trigger pullers, which were the low guys, and we went after the middle tier. We thought if we could get the middle tier between the big guys and the trigger pullers and find them, that they would lead us to those closest to Saddam, and that that might get us to the location where he was and that it worked.
Abid Hamid Mahmood, who was Saddam’s presidential secretary, ace of diamonds with Jack’s team and my troops, we captured him in June of 2003. We nearly caught Saddam in July of 2003 at the Hadooshi farm. We know Saddam… We know he was there. He might have still been there hiding much like he was later. But we captured $8.5 million of U.S. Currency. Mrs. Hussein’s passport or a national identity card. $2 million worth of jewelry, three quarters of $1 million in foreign currency, and another $850,000 the next day. Unbelievable wealth. So we were on the trail early on and over time we began to work it through the Musslit family, the Hadooshi family, Heremos sons. These were the groups that we were trying to track down, and it wasn’t just us. I want to stress that over and over. It wasn’t just us, but we did have a part of it.
And, as we approached it by October, you know, they certainly pushed back. A Squadron swapped out with a team from C Squadron. A task force, 20 became Task Force 1-21, and we began to work heavily with them. The enemy fought back like gangbusters, and we had a fair number of casualties. helicopters that were shot down with surface to air missiles. It wasn’t pleasant. It was hard work. But by the end of the November time frame, we were really thinning their ranks. And we tore into the Musslit family pretty well. They had ten brothers and multiple wife culture. We were able to neck down the key ones and the one guy we were all looking for by that time period was Mohammed al-Musslit. We’d been seeking him since May as a person of interest. We got real serious about getting him come summer. And then he was finally caught. In a series of events,
a tip from a boy. December 7th, 2003, walked up to one of the outposts 1st Brigade soldiers, and said, I know where some important people are. My commander, Colonel Jim Hickey who commanded operation Red Dawn. Ultimately, Bill Coultrup commanded the special ops forces as part of that. He ordered me to go and send a force out to the farm that the boy was talking about. And that put us on a rapid-fire chain over the next week. We did a multiple hit raid with elements of John; a guy I’ll call John. He led C Squadron. a team of C Squadron, that worked in our area hand-in-hand since October. And we began to thin out the last vestiges of the folks that got us closest to Mohammed al-Musslit. In a multiple raid evening, he ended up being caught the night of December 12th, and he was fingered by a translator Eric Maddox, who picked him out in Baghdad before he departed.
We ended up having…They brought Musslit up to Tikrit. They did a close reconnaissance. Everybody huddled together. We got all of our forces ready. John had to bring up special assets, so they wanted to bring in additional team members from C Squadron. Ended up bringing up the other two teams, as I recall you had about 800 soldiers total involved with the raid. My troops were part of the cordon on the western side of the farm of interest, where he was captured. We had three targets. Two were in an orchard. One was in a door. We wanted to make sure he didn’t squirt out of there, so we surrounded the broad net around that. 8:30 all forces were, or 8:00 all forces were set, and the farms were seized in the orchard. The one in Ad-Dawr turned out to be a dry hole. But the one where the orchard was,
it set on the bank of the Tigris River, close to where we got near the Hadooshi farm. It was on the other bank of the river where we nearly caught Saddam with all the money that we captured and the jewels and all of that. It was right in that same area. Saddam had stayed there. He’d been hiding in plain sight. And so Mohammed al-Musslit he was brought along for the raid. He kind of, after a quick look couldn’t find anything. Two men, it turned out to be his cook and his brother, a driver. They ended up fleeing north in the orchard and tossed their AK’s. What we think they did is they stashed Saddam in his hiding place and ran in the opposite direction. A guy named John Iverson, he spotted him in the woods and intercepted him, captured him. They brought him back to the site. They were really nervous.
Mohammed al-Musslit was brought into the site. This was about 8:20, maybe in the evening, December 13th. And they pressured Musslit. They said, where is he? And there was only maybe 6 or 8 soldiers on the site, a couple of dogs from John’s team. And the rest of us were intensely looking, searching in the tight area around that. And he just points, Musslit points towards a foot mat. Dilapidated, three room hut, patio, not very big. And this foot mat looked like it belonged as part of the patio where you wipe your feet, and he motions with his foot towards the foot mat, and he says he’s here. And so they got them and they got Qais Namaq Jassim and his brother. They got them out of there.
The two that were captured earlier. And then so John, he radios, and he says sir, we may have something. We all perked up and this was about 8:26. And so they pull back the foot mat. They began to brush the dirt away. Saw bits of rope. The ropes turned out to be handles to a Styrofoam top. It was laid in the brickwork, dirt on top of that foot mat you could stand on. It felt like the ground. Very clever. But when they pulled all that away a couple of John’s guys had a flashbang grenade, one ready to throw it down. The other hit it with the weapons light to see what was down there. Wasn’t sure what was down there. We had been briefed prior to the raid that it was, a tunnel, you know, something underground. We weren’t real sure. And they didn’t see a weapon or anything, but they did see two hands.
Guy down on all fours did not visibly see a weapon. And so they began to shout. Who are you? A translator named Samir. He began to translate what the special ops guys were saying. And then they grabbed him by the scruff of the neck when there was enough of him to grab, he had said you know, I’m Saddam Hussein, the duly elected president of Iraq. I’m willing to negotiate. And one of John’s guys says, well, President Bush sends his regards. And so they yanked him up out of there, and we knew he had a three-dot tattoo on the back of his left hand right here for God, Country, Leader. That was the vetting stuff. He had a sunburst tattoo on the back of his right hand. We were always instructed to look for those marks if we saw somebody that appeared to look like Saddam. And as they were checking him for those tattoos, which, by the way, he had, he got a little arrogant.
And he tried to shove one of John’s soldiers away, and that was a stupid thing to do. So they straightened him out and that that’s how he got the cut on his mouth and the and the cut on his eye. And after that he became cooperative. And so they put a bag on his head and zip tied him. Well, as this is unfolding, John radios to Colonel Hickey and Bill Coultrup and he just says jackpot. And so it’s really hard to describe, you know, in the brief, instant summary I’ve given you here. We knew history was being unfolded, but you’re just so focused on the raid and on everything that’s going on to absorb it all. And so a pilot named DB, he lands a Little Bird, and they take Saddam out to his awaiting presidential transportation, and they fly him to the Water Palace in Tikrit. Interestingly enough, above in an MH 53 was a special ops field surgeon Mark Green, who’s now serving in Congress from Tennessee.
So it’s interesting that two of us that were there on the raid ended up in Congress. Who would have thought, pretty fascinating. But they took Saddam to the Water Palace, and then when they could coordinate an Air Force escort, they sent him down to Baghdad in the early morning hours. And then, of course, it was announced to the whole world, that we got him, which was electrifying. When it was confirmed for me on the digital satellite communications telephone, the TacSat you know, I just, I was it’s really hard to describe. And it was euphoric. All the blood, sweat and tears, soldiers we lost all, everything. And it wasn’t over. I mean, the reaction in the days that followed was horrific. I had, you know, one of my best friends and you know, he was one of our strongest company commanders,
he was horribly wounded. And I had one of our combat medics wounded. Several others. We had a lot of fighting over three days. It was a rough time and the reaction after that. And then we still had a lot of fighting to do before we redeployed in April. But, you know, it was still, whatever people make of the Iraq war, nothing can take that away from the teams that worked together and caught Saddam. Both regular and special forces, special operations forces, all of us combined working together toward a common goal. and it was a historic achievement. That was one of the proudest days of my life. And I think that’s true for everybody that was on the raid. Never thought I’d be a part of any of it.
Well, and the pride of the soldiers who executed. You know, I think as a leader, when you have the soldiers and the mission’s accomplished, and to see them smiling and to see them happy and proud of what they did, I mean, I think as a leader, that’s the pinnacle of leadership, when you’ve led your team and they’re so proud of what they’ve done and you get to sit back and say, that’s my team.
Yeah. And that’s, you know, and the last time my task force was assembled, when we were back at what was then Fort Hood, Texas, and, you know, we were all assembled there together, 900 plus soldiers there. And I’m like, look, you know, whatever becomes of this war or whatever, you know, the politicians make of it. I said, no one can take away what you’ve achieved. And, you know, when the nation asked for people to serve, you stepped up and did it. And I said, one of these days when your old men or women, I had 17 women in my task force, decorated one for valor and sadly buried two. They were very brave. But I just told them, I said, one of these days when you’re old, I said, your peers are going to look back on their lives and wish they were you. And I said, thanks for serving when your country needed you. And it really is that. It’s just about serving. And our guys and gals, they did a magnificent job of that.
And Steve, it’s a great book. And we didn’t get a chance to really cover some of the cover, all of it. And for Veterans that want to find out more about the capture and read your book, We Got Him! Where can they purchase it?
So it’s on Amazon. The paperback is still in print. They can find it. You know, it was published in 2011. So, you know it’s been through a couple of editions. Like I said, the paperback is still in print. The hardcovers you can find. I’m happy to say that working with Kimball Productions now, I’m about 85% edited through my audiobook, and I’m actually narrating my audiobook. We finished and completed all of the recording, and we hope to have that released by the end of 2024 or early 2025. The date of this you know, podcast, obviously. But that’ll be really exciting where people that’s how a lot of people read today. They listen, you know, while they’re maximizing their time driving, working out, doing different things.
And so we hope to have that out very soon. So there’s multiple ways you can get it. It’s also available on Kindle. And then if you’d like to know more about our mission, at Jungle Aviation and Relay Service you know, what do we do? Reduce barriers, ease burdens, deliver God’s word. We serve a mighty savior. You know, as proud as I am of my service to both my country and the military, all of that, none of it’s going to matter at the end. What will matter is what did we do with Jesus Christ? I’m just absolutely 1,000% convinced on that. And so if you’d like to know more about what we do with airplanes, boats, four-wheel drive vehicles we do it in jungles across the globe. Amazon rainforest, Congolese rainforest, and the Melanesian rainforest.
We’d go and do hard things with some wonderful people, and there’s a way to use a lot of those skills. You can check us out at jaars.org. Jaars.org. And you can learn about some of that.
Yeah two ways. So Juliet, Alpha, Alpha, Romeo, Sierra .com.
Jungle, Aviation, and Relay Service. JAARS.
And for a lot of people that would be it, right. You had the big mission. You wrote the book, but you continued to serve. You served as a state senator in Oklahoma for a period of time, where you wrote some great legislation to help soldiers. I want to talk about that a little bit. You wrote the Soldiers Relief Act and the Soldiers Credentialing Act. Tell us a little bit about those, and how you came across the idea that Oklahoma needed this legislation.
Well, you know, during World War ll, they came up with the Soldiers Relief Act, and it was automatic. Every state abided by it. But over time, what it meant was, is that if you were employed in one state, you didn’t pay taxes in another. So a soldier who was from New Jersey, for example, who was down in Georgia, he didn’t pay both New Jersey and Georgia taxes. He just paid one. Oklahoma didn’t have that. All of them had it in World War ll. But over time, they began to adjust it, and many states quit doing it. They would say, well, you know, you still need to pay the state that you’re a residency of. So I tried to take Oklahoma back, and I proved and showed that Oklahoma was losing an awful lot of active-duty military. The reservists, obviously, they were there, and National Guard, but active duty.
So they’re from Oklahoma. You know, they get stationed in Texas or Nevada or Alaska. They changed their residency. And then what happens? They go out and buy the Ford Bronco or the big Mustang or, you know, whatever excise taxes go to that new state. Everything else goes to that new state on purchases, everything state of residency. And I showed that we were losing a lot of money in our recruitment. And then when it came time to retire, those things mattered how you treat Veterans. So I wanted to correct that, and I authored it my first year in the state Senate in 2009. And it got passed, by a Democratic governor. I was a Republican. We had, you know, a mixed legislature, but it was something that people got behind. And then they made it where serving military would be tax exempt in the state of Oklahoma with Oklahoma residency. Later that was extended to retirees which helped secure them after they left the military, although I couldn’t author that because I had retired from the military.
And then the Soldiers Credentialing Act. Very frustrating. You would watch, guys come home, gals have the G.I. Bill and you know, the colleges and universities they knew they could get that G.I. Bill. And but we need you to take all of these extra courses and try to milk that for as much as they could. And they did. And I’m like, no, you’ve got men and women that had incredible skill, incredible life skills. You need to transfer all of these credits and skills that they’ve picked up and apply that towards their degrees. And so we walked through, and that’s where the Soldiers Credentialing Act came from, so that they would get credit for a lot of the things that they had training in. So that we wouldn’t see more of America’s tax dollars wasted in things that they already knew how to do.
Now, you also pushed some additional legislation that helped Veterans like me who in service, served while single, get married, get divorced. You were not married through the entire military career. And the way it would work is that spouse would get half. But you did something to change that. So tell us about that.
Yeah. When I was serving in the United States Congress, was on the personnel subcommittee of the Armed Services Committee, and I had a constituent he was the seventh chief master sergeant of the Air Force as a top enlisted soldier. And he was from Oklahoma. He was from my district. And he said, hey, can you do something about this? And I was familiar with Uniform Spouses Protection Act. You know, Pat Schroeder from she got it in, in midnight legislation back in the late 80s in the United States Congress, terrible, terrible legislation. It purported to protect spouses in the military. Okay, we all want that. But what it ended up was it created loopholes that robbed Veterans of their deserved benefits. And many of them you know, after long years of service and multiple combat deployments, in the case of this chief master sergeant. Okay, he goes all the way 35, 36 years. Well, when he was a young airman, you know, he met the love of his life, you know, who knows where.
You know, young, still a teenager. They were married 15, 18 months, something like that. He goes on his first deployment, comes back. She’s gone. Right. So then now he’s a young sergeant a couple of years later, and he remarries. That spouse stays with him another 30 plus years. When he retired from the top enlisted post in the Air Force, she… The spouse number one, he had not heard from in decades. Suddenly reappears to claim half of his military retirement, which was substantial being the chief master sergeant of the Air Force. And that’s just wrong. So what we did is that we went back and tried to make it fair. So the legislation was, is that at the time of legal separation and divorce, at the rank of and the number of months at. So in his case, it would have been he would have been Airman First Class or something like that, 15, 18 months of marriage.
That’s what she would have been entitled to a portion on his retirement. Now, if they had hung in there 35 years and he got a case of the stupid and dumped her for some new model or something. Okay, yeah, she deserves every bit as much and more. So we wanted to be fair but at the same time there was a record holder from one of the Dakotas, I can’t remember. She had married and divorced four retirees and was collecting 200%. You know, 50% times for making more than any of the retirees that she had divorced. You know, so that was just wrong. We closed that. Reached across the aisle, broad bipartisan support. It was bad law. It needed to be corrected. And I’m proud of that one. That was one of them we were able to get through the U.S. Congress that had lingered literally for decades. Unfortunately, we couldn’t make it retrospective, but at least it’s helped those since 2017 or whenever it was, we got it passed.
And so you not only helped Veterans as a state senator, but as a member of the United States Congress, the U.S. House of Representatives, during your two terms or four years. You’re also able to help Veterans. And you would think at this point, you know, this is pretty good. His battalion captured Saddam Hussein, wrote the book, served his government, state government, served in federal government. But you’re not done. And in fact, you form Vets for Victory. And then you’re on the board of Vets for Freedom, which is now Concerned Vets for America. Correct?
Yeah. So we started that right after I retired from the service in 2006, I started Vets for Victory. I had an agent, Premiere Speakers Bureau. They’re still my agent today. You know, went around the country talking about leadership, talking about problem solving, talking about the Saddam capture. Obviously, still do that. And we were concerned at that time, the surge, you know, whether or not America takes a risk on that, tries to turn things around. We felt like they should. Politicians were saying horrible things. You know, the war is lost, and you know we should quit. This was 2007 time frame. And when I formed the organization, then we crossed paths with me and Scott Rutter formed it. He was a decorated silver star. Bronze star for valor, Gulf War, and Iraq War. Wonderful man, good friend. He commanded I think 27 infantry Cottonbalers in the opening stages of the war.
But anyway, we formed Vets for Victory. And then we ran across David Bellavia and Pete Hegseth’s organization Vets for Freedom, which, you know, David went on to earn the Medal of Honor. He had earned it in Fallujah prior but then he was finally awarded the medal when President Trump awarded it to him. Pete is now being considered at the date of this podcast you know, for secretary of defense. We just took our stories on the road and did national tours. Guys like…We had Jeremiah Workman, David Bellavia and we had the… Oh, gosh, I’m drawing a blank, lone survivor.
Marcus Luttrell.
Marcus Luttrell, and we, we did national tours. And we just took our war stories on the road, all of these highly decorated interesting Veterans and stories. And we went out we started in California, ended up in New York. I mean, we did that several times. Met with the president. We took vets on the Hill in 2008. This was kind of where I began to cross into politics a little bit, debating the surge. We met with John McCain and others that were trying to make the case for the surge. We met with President Bush, sat in the white House with him in the Roosevelt Room. He wanted to hear what we had to say. We went to all the lawmakers. 500 vets on the Hill. We went to all the different members went to their where their constituents you know, they got to hear from us.
And we told them, hey, don’t quit. Our men and women are out there doing it. You ask us to go do it. Give us the means to finish the job. And it worked. You know, people can debate all they want now. But that that was the power of the Veteran to voice and to get involved locally. Well, Vets for Freedom and Vets for Victory, they combined. And then later that formed what is now Concerned Veterans for America. It still exists. We did a couple of tours on that. Talked about VA health care. The big debacle in Colorado, the $1.2 billion hospital, you know, all that stuff. So that got me involved in a lot of those issues. It wasn’t Veterans advocacy. It was putting a Veteran’s voice in the debate about our wars. And it was putting a Veteran’s voice in just the national consciousness.
You had people making decisions without asking our opinion. And so we were trying to do that. And then later I was approached by the Oklahoma Republican Party to run for a state Senate seat. I was like, yeah, you know, maybe. They said, well, it’s a part time legislature. And that was partly true. and so I thought, can I still, can I still do my speaking and writing and stuff? And they go, Well I don’t know, we’ve never had a professional speaker run for office before. And they determined in the ethics committee that I could. So the state law was a little different from federal law. And so I decided to run five-way race. Unknown foolishly found myself elected to the state Senate. And then after a couple of years, I got a little disillusioned with that. These were not unsolvable problems in government, but we spent most of our time attacking the other side of the aisle and attacking people rather than solving the problem.
So that’s when I formed my rifle company, Two Rivers Arms, and started learning about manufacturing. And I was mad. I couldn’t bring home souvenirs from the wars. And so we began to make them. And our biggest claim to fame was we made all of the Iraqi firearms in Clint Eastwood’s movie American Sniper, which was pretty cool. The company is still around today even though I don’t run any of its operations or do any of That. That all ended when I went to Congress. But I learned a lot about running a business, having employees, payroll taxes, health care. You know, it was a great education. And then decided to run for an open seat in the U.S. Congress. And four-and-a-half-month race, six hobos, one ham sandwich, heavily outspent and found myself elected to the U.S. Congress. And it was exhilarating.
It was a fun campaign. Had a lot of young guys and gals helped me get elected. Kind of a grassroots army. And then I served… I was on the Armed Services Committee all four years. I was on the Oversight and Government Reform Committee. The vice chairman of the committee ended up the chairman of the National Security subcommittee. Traveled all over the globe dealing with security issues. It was a wonderful privilege to serve my country in that capacity. And I wouldn’t change anything. I hated the nonsense, but I loved the work. I hated the attacking each other. Seth Moulton, Democrat out of Pennsylvania, combat marine he and I formed what was called the Warriors Caucus. There were only 17 combat Veterans out of 435 lawmakers in the House. That was it. 17 combat Veterans, only 97 Veterans of any stripe. And so we were trying to get our voice on bipartisan issues.
And that’s where the Uniform Spouse Protection Act reform came. And some of those other things that we did get passed by working with those Veterans on both sides of the aisle.
And what I love about this is that by the time you are serving in the United States Congress, you’re a Veteran, you’ve been a small business owner, and you really understand who you’re representing. You understand that you’re representing the people. And I would ask you now, as we look at, you know, the makeup of our government, you know, do you feel that Veterans are adequately represented in Congress?
No, not… Well, I guess you could say proportionate to the number of Veterans that we have in the country. You know, that’s probably maybe true. You know, less than half of 1% of our nation defends it. You know, in the early 1970s we had 70% of Congress, both House and Senate, were Veterans. A lot of that was because of World War II. But today it’s in both houses, less than 100. And now we’re starting to see a little bit of uptick with the Iraq and Afghan Veterans and then the others, you know, that have become Veterans of Syria and other places, Libya. I think that Veterans add something. You also have those that they’re political animals first and foremost, and then they go and try to find a way to get service under their belt. And I’m a little suspicious of that. But to the knuckle draggers out there that have done the service, whether they’ve driven a truck or they’ve mounted a bayonet on their rifle, it doesn’t matter. If they’ve been out there doing it, and then they want to enter public life, they bring a lot to the table.
They know how to work with a team. They know how to work with people that disagree with them. They know how to work with people that are ethnically different from them. They’re used to hardship. They bring a lot to the table in any discussion in politics. And they don’t look at things as partisan now some do but for the most part, you could find common ground with the Veterans. So, yeah, if we had more of them, I think our country would be better off.
Well, and it seems not everybody has had your experience. I mean, a combat infantryman, battalion commander. Right. Infantry battalion commander. And once again, you capture Saddam Hussein. And I want to hear more about that. But you’ve done some amazing things. But even if you hadn’t had those opportunities, the fact that you raised your hand and swore to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. It gives you a leg up on most of your peers out there who never volunteered for anything. And I you know, I get to the point where people talk about, well, I’m a public servant. But you bring up a pretty good point. A lot of the career politicians, they’re more public serpents. I mean, they are out there for themselves. And to the extent that they can try to claim credit for something they do. But that’s different than the men and women who served, who know what real leadership looks like. And, you know, it’s not just taking the oath, but it’s going to basic training or boot camp and humbling yourself and learning from other great leaders and learning what leadership feels like.
Because leadership is not about coddling, it’s about challenging and making people better. And if you haven’t served, I don’t know where people get that, except for maybe team sports. Maybe they were in a great, challenging academic program. But Veterans have such a strong advantage that we would hope to see more of them serving again in politics.
Well, and I think that because not very many people defend our nation. If people aren’t really sure how to deal with this, especially those of us that have seen, you know, no kidding real combat. And then multiple tours, like many have, they’re not really sure what to do with this. You know, it’s kind of like, you know, when somebody hands you a puppy. You go, oh, you know how cute. Oh, quick, you know, put it outside before it, you know, pees on something or whatever. And they’re not really sure what to do with us. They in our combat experiences, they don’t know how to approach us to talk about that. They’re not real. You know, they automatically have these stereotypes that, you know, we’re these draconian stern inflexible types that you know don’t listen,
can’t work well with others all of that. There’s a there’s a lot of that that we face when we come home. And yet they’re some of the most flexible appreciative, loyal people that you would have. That doesn’t mean they don’t have issues. But like, I would explain to my colleagues on the Armed Services Committee, and they would, you know, they would roll out the stereotypes and the tropes all the time. And I would say, look, you know, you ever been in a tornado or a car wreck or been into something traumatic? You know, maybe it killed a family member or a friend. Okay, that’s traumatic. It stays with you, it affects you, and maybe it even shapes some decisions in your lives. But that doesn’t mean you curl up in a ball and you don’t get up and go to work every day, or that you don’t go do things. It had an impact.
You want people to get help, counseling, whatever it is. You know, my faith in Christ it forms a lot of my recovery and the way that I’ve handled all of those experiences. So you have that. But then people think that you’re permanent damaged goods. You know, one of the laws I got changed was on Second Amendment issue in Oklahoma, where the concealed carry laws and all of that, they had questionnaire that said, had you ever received any medical attention, you know, dealing with PTSD, post-traumatic stress? Well, that was an unfair question. Every returning combat Veteran gets such counseling. And so they would answer it, you know, because they, they put in large print if you lie on anything on this form you know, you could be subject to perjury and all that. So they’d answer yes, and then they’d be denied their permit because they answered honestly.
And so I told them, I said, look, I said, you’re not throwing out people in car accidents that had PTSD or in tornadoes that had PTSD. Why are you picking on the Veterans? And so we changed the language on the form. It says, have you ever been adjudicated as mentally incompetent by a judge? Well that’s different. If I’m mentally incompetent, yeah, I don’t need a firearm. But if I went and served my country and was willing to risk my life and lay down my life for it, okay. You know, there’s some that’s somebody that might have a protective nature, might be able to help in a crisis, you know. And so that was a big breakthrough in just how dealing with my colleagues in the state Senate at that time they really hadn’t thought of it that way, you know, because they automatically assumed you go through something traumatic, that you’re damaged goods and you can never be repaired again. That’s a bucket of nonsense.
Well, and I can think of nobody I would rather have with a firearm than a Veteran. And if you think back to, you know, the deployments, right. Not only did we were we always aware of where our weapon was, and we always had that muzzle awareness, but we had to go to the cleaning, clearing barrels and make sure the weapon was cleared. Every time you went in and out, in and out of the gate. And it was, you know, it was a negligent discharge if you were careless. But the point was that you know, back then, they trusted you with the firearm. And for a lot of the Veterans, you know, they went through that traumatic event, and they still kept going in and out of the gate. And we trusted them with firearms for several deployments. And now they come back and now we want to say, we want to take your firearms, because when you came back, you had PTSD counseling or even worse, because you went and sought treatment.
We’re going to take your firearm even though we trusted you for three, 4 or 5 deployments. I mean, it is ridiculous. And I think of the civilians that carry firearms around, right? And it’s like they don’t know how to use them, and they don’t I mean, not all of them, but there are a fair amount that they want to carry it for reasons that make no sense to me. And for the Veterans out there that have protected our Second Amendment right. If anyone should be allowed to have a firearm, it should be that Veteran. And as you said, unless they’ve been adjudicated as having a mental health condition, that would make them dangerous.
Yeah. And I, you know, you know you’re succeeding as a father and returning combat Veteran, you know, when your kids are are calling out their childhood friends about trigger discipline and muzzle awareness with their water guns or their toy or toy rifles or whatever. Okay, where are they picking that up? You know, from dad or mom. And you know, that served. There’s a lot of those stereotypes, and, you know, it just takes education. And I think a lot of it is as people mix and get around Veterans, they realize, I think people appreciate us. I’ve never felt that they don’t you know, by and large. And I’m grateful for that. Like you said, your dad, you know, is a Vietnam Veteran you know, wasn’t treated that way. And that’s certainly true of many but we also don’t want that replaced with platitudes.
You know, get to know us, trust us. We can still do hard things. We can still contribute to society. And, you know, we can still do challenging and constructive things. I never thought I’d be leading an organization like I am now, and I’m grateful. You know, for the opportunity to do that. Learned to fly late in life. Didn’t get my pilot license till 2019. Not that they’re needing my flying skill, but I can identify a propeller on an airplane four out of five times in a lineup most of the time. They appreciate the fact that I’m able to go and bring in other things leadership experience, geopolitical experience, problem solving, where I can apply those skills. And then how do you get in to difficult places? How do you, you know, how do you do logistics in the mountain jungles? You know, where you’re landing on an 800-foot strip and maybe at 19% slope?
You know, at 6,500 feet and a jungle that would swallow you whole. And that’s what our guys and gals do at Jungle Aviation and Relay Service. Why? They’re motivated to take the word of God to people that don’t have it. They go in bring linguists in to learn the language give them literacy so that they’ve got choices, and they’ve got life. They got different things. And, you know, there’s a lot of Veterans in our ranks. We’re grateful for that. Some of our pilots, rotor wing in particular, make easy transitions. Others you know, they’ve served in different capacities. So our Veterans can, they can do hard things. They know how to do hard things.
Well and you brought up something, you know, not just in the House of Representatives, but also as the president of JAARS. You know, not everybody has the amount of combat experience you had, but there are a lot of officers who have served on staff and joint staff. And, you know, one thing that I found is Veterans that have served on staff know how to get things done in a group. I don’t know if it works that way in Washington, D.C., but as you know, you’ve been on staff. You’ve probably been the S-3 hopefully not the S-4. You know, but there are some staff positions are better than others. But, you had to talk to your peers and, you know, people think military leadership. Oh, well, you know how to take commands, and you know how to give commands. But what they don’t understand is when you get to those staff assignments, you really have to be able to work with your peers.
Especially if it’s a joint operation where you, as the Army guy, are working with Navy, Air Force, Marines. And that ability, I think, you know, if you’ve never had that experience, I mean, it is totally different than I think the stereotype that I thought was true. I can go into what military leadership is about. And I can tell you that there is a bunch of lateral level leadership skills that you learn serving on a staff. And it seems to me that you, in all the organizations that you’ve run and running a small business, you’ve mastered that, and you took those skills with you from the military and brought them into the civilian world.
Yeah. Simple things like, okay, what is it we’re trying to do? What’s the purpose of what we’re trying to do? What are the tasks that could accomplish that purpose? Do we have any people that have the skills to do those tasks? is there an organization that could do it? Or do we need to group people together in a task force? Okay. Who can lead this? You know, just a simple drill like that Veterans can bring a lot of that. Because typically in corporate America, a lot of times it’s like, okay, who’s in charge of this? Well, who do we got working with us? And then you get to what is it we’re trying to do? You know, it’s exactly backwards. And so your point on, even the people that have done staff work and they’ve done different things where they collude information, they can track things.
They can problem solve. All of those are valuable skills that they can bring to the table. And corporations ought to love that. And many do, you know, they recruit Veterans for that purpose.
Now it’s time for the after-action review. Steve, please give us one example of great leadership and one example of horrible leadership.
Yeah. So I think you know, two leaders influenced me the most in the military. Dave Grange, holy cow. I learned so much from Dave Grange. You know, he commanded Ranger battalion. Ranger regiment. He commanded Delta. he commanded 1st Infantry Division. That guy you look up, leader his picture’s in the dictionary. Unbelievable warrior. I learned more about team building mental toughness he was just an astounding leader. Jay Hendrix was the other one. Wow. You know Silver Star recipient from Vietnam. Multiple decorations for valor. Went on to lead forces command as a four-star general. Calm. Brilliant leader. Commanded at every level. Those were the two finest examples of leadership that I ever served under.
Outstanding. Now, let’s talk about the bad leadership.
Yeah. You know, the one that you know, a leader that just says, Well, that’s the way I am. You know, problems, stress, anger. You know, they’re just short wired to not handling things well. And they think that shouting and shoving is the way to get things done. I mean, that’s just nonsense. And I tried to stand between me and my soldiers on that. You know, you can’t always change the leaders that are over you, but you can be a layer between you and your soldiers. You know, don’t be a stress amplifier. You’ll go home and kick the dog because, you know, you got kicked at work or whatever. It’d be a stress reducer those things are important. I saw examples of a lot of poor leadership in the military, but here was the good thing. It only lasted about six months. Either you get a set of orders, or they do, or some circumstance changes and, you know, just hang in there, you know?
At most it lasts a year and then you always learn from it. In those challenging things where you have bad leaders be a good leader for the soldiers under you so that they got a little bit of layer of protection over bad leadership.
Well, Steve Russell, thank you so much for sharing your stories today on Veteran Led. And thank you for not only serving as a soldier but serving as a citizen. And then what you did for Veterans, not only in the Oklahoma state government, but more importantly, what you also did in our federal government. Thank you.
It’s an honor to do it. I got to do you know, I’ve lived an amazing life. I’ve crammed about five lives into one, but I’m not done. You know, as long as God gives me breath, I’m going to continue to pour it out in service. You know, just don’t ever quit. Make your life count.
Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we pursue our mission of promoting Veteran leadership in business, strengthening the Veteran community, and getting Veterans all of the benefits that they earned. If you know a leader who should be on the Veteran Led podcast, report to our online community by searching @VeteranLed on your favorite social channels and posting in the comments. We want to hear how your military challenges prepared you to lead your industry or community, and we will let the world know. And of course, hit subscribe and join me next time on Veteran Led.
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